If that's the case, then Albert Mohler is one of the most radical Social Justice Warriors in evangelicalism, doing a 180-degree turn from his 2014 debate with Jim Wallis on the subject. It is merely that when the topic came up I wrote about it, and note that I did not address my comment to any particular person. Im fortunate in that my Dad did get sober via AA. Although the church is not an official Foursquare church, it appears they are welcoming of the charismatic gifts. You advocated, like Barbara, that Sproul Jr. be kicked out of his church. Sproul was founder of Ligonier Ministries, first minister of preaching and teaching at Saint Andrew's Chapel in Sanford, Fla., and first president of R There may be other legal reasons for R.C. But Im going to respond a little further. Theres even less agreement on the extend to which an alcoholic is responsible for his behaviour whilst drunk. He does not operate in the same universe as many of us if I ever did even one thing he did I would have been shown the door, day one. For the record, I said above I dont know where I stand on this. I hope his (second) wife and children get help to take care of themselves around his alcoholism and learn how to set boundaries with him. I dont recall anyone saying addictions alone warranted anyone being kicked out. Barbara made the comment to H.U.G. You seem to think more highly of church than I do in these matters, however, because I think that getting church to perform up to speed in these areas is a hopeless quest. and a lot of people think they are helping when they are just enabling the status quo He is now a wonderful father and husband. I do however agree with everything else youve said. It is great in this day and age with blogs etc. We are very fortunate to have these services available for people who cant afford them. http://www.ligonier.org/blog/forsaken-jesus-became-curse/, http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/church-england-head-colluded-sex-abuse-48202873. Lisa clearly doesnt understand the scope of Drug Court, the cases they can legally accept (felony indictments are an immediate and mandatory disqualification), but this isnt surprising. Some medications break the cycle the body is running on-producing anxiety. But now I understand why youve used it. But hed lost his wife to cancer is the same excuse his supporters used to defend him over his Ashley Madison scandal. Since you have a background in this, would you be willing to assist me? Do they criticize non-drinkers? Double, Bubble, Toil and Stumble, by RC Sproul Jr. For many, if the self-med is alcohol or drugs or opioids, this requires medical help; and very likely psychiatric intervention and follow up also. I would ask that you not use it again though. Barbara could have easily included treatment for alcoholism in her comment. R C Sproul Junior needs to be put out of the church and that needs to be very publicly done because he has been so significant at Ligonier. Blog owners can run their blogs how they like. The surgeons would tell you pregnancy is a disease . Velour wrote: Reports I have read from many who attended St. Peter indicated that it was run like a cult. Sr. CAN keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit. Would it help your perspective any to know that RC Jr has unjustly excommunicated entire families, and were not just talking a few, including small children, for the alleged sins of their parents? I reacted too strongly to some things you said. I do not believe that an addict should be thrown out of church.There is afterall a disease involved, but a church should not enable. Velour The chronic behavior (for decades) that I and others have mentioned: spiritual abuse, Ashley Madison, putting his family in harms way by drinking and driving, are more than enough to get him kicked out. The same woman surgeon from before and a woman anesthesiologist and more women in scrubs packed into the OR than I thought necessary-but they have their reasons. I then asked you to stop it, to write your own ideas, and to stop using my name and saying that I am ratifying behavior that I have not. Might be the only justice his victims get and Im sure that his church and family may actually get some help while hes in county lockup. People need to wake up. This is what Barbara posted to H.U.G. 5, that you mention: If he wants church support, hes going to have to change churches, I think. So youre uncomfortable with those truths. Daisy wrote: @Deb Thank you for the welcome. They will not change who the man fundamentally is. Family (1) Trivia (1) Christian theologian. If she were an unbeliever it wouldnt matter. Theyve paved the path to hell for their Precious. The consequences of their enabling are far far worse than if theyd just let him have to face the consequences of his bad life choices on his own. Do they choose their friends among other heavy drinkers? I need to be careful to look to Scripture for my measure of Gods Law for sin, not taking the measure from what people and tradition may say sin is. Theres a show about morbidly obese people on cable TV, and some of them over eat to medicate pain left over from childhood. It got depressing, I have lost well over 200 of the people I worked with, most of them younger than I am. . The last surgery was done at Duke when I was a senior there. I do wonder why so many people continue to support R.C. I dont recall ever treating Velour in that fashion. Serous help? (Is this still considered true? Family and friends are welcome to leave their condolences on this memorial page and share them with the family. It causes me to stretch and to become more understanding. Drunkenness may involve more of a choice than does alcoholism. She may not have much say over what he does, especially anything involving his children. I have no problem with alcohol use by people who arent alcoholics and are responsible about it. You can be sure that Barbara, Dee, and I sit on a lot of information that never gets released to the public. The recovering alcoholics that I know who work good sobriety programs (men and women alike) have ditched many of their old ways. And I cant thank you enough for the lovely story that you wrote to us yesterday about how your church and clergy loved and cared for that woman church member who was an alcoholic and who wasnt clean and sober. He was a success story. But he doesnt always choose to do what we want, no matter how fervent our prayers may be. Sproul, Jr. Steps Down from Ligonier Ministries and Reformation BibleCollege, RC Sproul Jr Is Now a Convicted Felon Alcoholic and Is One Step Away From a Tragedy, RC Sproul Jr. Avoids Prison, Takes Plea Deal for Driving Drunk With Kids, https://relevantmagazine.com/god/rc-sproul-jr-suspended-ministry-after-admitting-visiting-ashley-madison/. In fact in his case it goes much further than it went with you. Steven King, recovering alcoholic, (King relates this in the autobiographical first half of his nonfiction book On Writing. It is one thing for someone like R.C. 2. My young wife used to attend a few of my classes with me. . Thats not the answer to their problems. No prison time. We ran this support group for 16 years. However, Lisa (Sproul?) Im just saying that it was handled with some thought and care at that church, and not at all taken lightly. 30-90 day inpatient treatment is cost prohibitive for a lot of people, even if they wanted to go. I think solid Christian formation is far more productive and healing than the miserable anecdotes I hear about of Church discipline which seems so negative and punitive and results in public SHAMING, something that is very destructive for any person If somebody asks themselves where the line is then the line may be something they have already crossed in their own mind, or else why would they even ask. But to publicly humiliate people instead of directing them to in-patient substance treatment is wrong. Bike Bubba, If you look at his personal history (Google has tons), you will see chronic and persistent sin throughout his adulthood. (Sometimes some of the treatment programs can create another set of problems in a person.). Velour, Im not going to directly answer your question until I can tell the story properly with vetted sources. It should also be noted that removing someone from the church, for a time, does not mean they are declared an unbeliever. Can you please identify the comment? One or two DUIs is usually not enough. According to his own theology, it does not. . What are you agreeing with Barbara aboutthat all people with serious problems that require medical intervention and treatment should be publicly humiliated in a some kind of Salem Witch Trials II hearing? (P.S. Most revealing are the forums and blogs by ex members. Please understand that your comments could be thought to be a tad overbearing as well. I have had plastic surgery three times. Friends and. Now that Ive been spending more time reading what they write, I am shocked that they have any platform at all. Hi Julie Anne, CONTENT MAY BE COPYRIGHTED BY WIKITREE COMMUNITY MEMBERS. Sovereign Grace Ministries For instance, Ive no control over my basal insulin requirement; if I take too much Ill be hypoglycaemic (albeit mildly) in the morning, and if I take too little, my glucose levels will be high (albeit much less than they were when I was diagnosed!). RC2 as an intelligent child and adolescent would learn to leverage that, and then we are off to the races toward where we are now. Sproul, Jr. to capitalize on his father's recent death and pull the heartstrings of those who admired his father is inappropriate. Obituary. or covetous, [going after what belongs to others] I am not surprised that an active alcoholic is pushing drinks on everyone around him, as it makes him seem normal and justifies his drinking. I cannot even imagine that a church would have no means of church discipline at all, the world being what it is and scripture saying what it does. Abuse is a different issue. Great minds think alike! And, yes, there is more. Lets Take a Breather With A Bizarre Story about R.C. I noticed the same kinds of barbs being dished out over there, so its not just this blog, this issue, this thread, and me in particular. (P.S. R.C. Were not mind readers. He was fired from the local/regional, and the local/regional bore the lawsuit and payout of the woman. I am so relieved to be out of my ex-NeoCalvinist church/cult too. We dont need to be accepting alcohol abuse at any level merely because it may be a disease. Spinderella Sproul: Lessons In Spin With RC Sproul Jr, the legal criteriaof having his criminal case accepted by the Allen County Drug Court, the church governing body was aware of this issue. She may not have much say over what he does, especially anything involving his children. I am a broken, wounded woman, who happens to have different people in my life who cut, starve, purge, overeat, get drunk, medicate with R/X drugs, smoke pot, work themselves ragged, overspend, in hope to silence the agony of depression, intense anxiety, raging self-contempt, hopeless despair, excruciating shame, and (false) guilt. I feel everyone involved( church, family, job should ethically help a person reach bottom. I did a poor job of hearing you through all your pain, a pain which is very genuine and proper considering all the terrible things youve likely been through. In fact in his case it goes much further than it went with you. Parish? I wouldnt call it a mixing of apples and oranges. I dont support enabling him. What will other alcoholics in the pews do or substance abusers who are struggling? He has suffered tragedies, yes. Robert Sproul passed away on December 14, 2017 in Orlando, Florida. wrote: Perhaps you have very little experience with people (men and women) who have gotten clean and sober. 1 Corinthians 5:11-13. I quoted this post because it has both your posts in it. We part company, however, over the theological issue of how to deal with people who are struggling with addictions in the church. R.C. It can also be very hard to live with one. He excommunicates entire families for the alleged sins of just one family member. Haha. I tried really hard to help and could not. Any alcoholism (whether helplessly dependent, wantonly revelling in, or anywhere in between) going on in Mr Sprouls life is going on in the life of a prominent minister who claims (and, it would appear, wields) authority over other believers. When I am around a person/s who are alcoholics, I will not drink alcohol because I dont want to be a cause for them to be tempted to drink. The road to Mendota was very long and wound sharply through thick woods. Thank-You Love! I learned at an early age that it can be DEADLY!!! Churches through the valley recommended us to parents of teens in trouble with drugs and alcohol. With respect, you still didn't quote this correctly. Perhaps the Serenity Prayer, usually ascribed to Reinhold Niebuhr, will help some of us: The type of fatalistic Calvinism taught by Sproul certainly had an impact on Sproul Jr. Is Sproul Jrs behavior the fruit of being so close to that teaching? Since yall are medical people, is alcoholism a disease? Not saying you are wrong JY, but if you read the entire chapter, including the beginning of chapter six, Paul references the assembly as well, and turning over to Satan. But putting him out of the church does not stop him getting that assistance. Im asking, since you advocate for alcoholics to get non-church treatment AND to be allowed to sit in a pew every week. People do not drink large amounts habitually and still live your best life now. they are excellent human beings. Re Sproul, Im kind of with Jack in that its hard to have sympathy for him, because Ive seen too many other things that bother me. Preach it sister! Someone (I dont know who) has definitely enabled RC Jr to drink and give drink to children! This wasnt a little bit buzzed. Some might call it being accountable. I lost a cousin to drunk driving incident many years ago- she was a mother of one child. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. Finally? They will not change who the man fundamentally is. She said, he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. In my view and experience with RC Jr shes absolutely correct. Sproul Jrs spiritually abusive treatment of church members and whole families. I would sure like to be aware of that when conversing with you. @ refugee: and me nasty too and to the whole understanding of the complexity of the problems. You got it dead wrong. Talk about a great way of destroying the faith of children! He made need to be hospitalized and treated by those who are not overly impressed with the Sproul name. Mr Sproul Jr has not reached the bottom. He needs a skill-intervention by those people around him. If that was the objective of RC Sproul Jr he should know its worked! But sometimes thats where we end up. none of that was news to us he's been doing all that for years. Hi VELOUR, Many of us have been abused in our families of origin, which is bad enough. We really need to drop it as this point. Maybe you were talking about a different comment than the one Im talking about, though. Eventually I found assurance in my peace. According to the article that Dee quoted, Sproul 2 wont be going to jail. I have been talking about how the church should react in the face of this sort of egregious behavior. I understand. He just masks it well.. oh my goodness .. But to just say that someone with a drinking/substance abuse problem in the church should be publicly humiliated is NOT how substance abuse is supposed to be handled or treated. Just last week our District Attorney got brought up on 13 felony counts. I am just not going to be holding my breath, thats all. But! Theres a lot thats known about how to deal with people with addictions. Sproul Sr. will experience, Heres hoping Dees post will have such an impact on someone that they will resolve to. Plus I dont like the way it makes me feel. Remember too, that in a church that is functioning well, there are plenty of people that have sin issues that are sincerely repentant and asking for help, and we should be giving them loving care and it may involve counseling and financial resources. The church frequently blows it on things like this, without proper training and guidance. Blessings to you both. Have been praying for you, brian, and will continue to pray for your peace (the one that passeth understanding). Rank Hath Its Privileges, No doubt RC Sproul Jr is breathing a huge sigh of relief that he will not have to face a full criminal trial before a jury. Thank you for telling your story. I also know plenty of men and women who are clean and sober and have had transformed lives. Dr. R.C. Your reactions make sense. Many members of St. Peter Presbyterian Church, the church that he started in Virginia, and then subsequently resigned from after hisdefrocking in 2006, often witnessed RC Sproul Jr inebriated, including at various church celebrations (i.e. That is where God met me and my family member. Gail wrote: Finally, if anyone who is aware of further drunk driving or other forms of abuse,I hope that they will call Child Protective Services. The other does not. ( a few drug addicts too ) I have to confess, I am somewhat intolerant of their behaviors. Were all (finally) in agreement that the man needs treatment. That is making it something comprehensive rather than case specific. Sproul Jr. and his family in my prayers. But on Sunday mornings he taught a class at Oreland Presbyterian Church comprised mostly of adult professionals. Thanks for sharing. According to his own theology, it does not. This is in keeping with working the steps with a sponsor in a recovery program and cleaning up the wreckage of ones past.. I havent read all the comments, so forgive me if I am off topic by this point. Velour basically verbally abused me in this thread, which is on a blog about Spiritual Abuse recovery, ~ironically~. Velour was being hostile to a few people up thread such as Barbara and Julie Anne, and later, to me. I can totally understand RCSproul wanting to protect his son, What I dont understand is his lack of faith in Gid dealing with his son. DUI/DWI with minors in the vehicle is a crime. Ive never read that before but it gave me goosebumps. was hurt, and has seen others hurt (including whole families and children), by R.C. . This is beyond shocking to me. I agree with what you wrote about Sproul 2 and how the different problems should be handled. We can be His hands & feet to a hurting soul, we can listen without telling, we can confess our faults to others so they understand they are not alone, we can give anonymously to people & not tithe to a church. Pain is no fun and draining. or a drunkard, [substance abuse] I wouldnt step foot in a church that wasnt trained to deal with the big issues, including substance abuse, and just kicked people out. The hotter it is, the faster those icy cold spirits will flow. We are theologically different, however, in how we view people with addictions. An impact on someone that they have any platform at all taken lightly people do not drink large habitually. 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Amounts habitually and still live your best life now as Barbara and Julie Anne, CONTENT may a... Known about how to deal with people ( men and women who are not overly impressed the. Which is on a lot of information that never gets released to whole...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! On Writing paved the path to hell for their Precious the objective of RC Sproul he... Wanted to go of directing them to in-patient substance treatment is cost prohibitive for a time, does not more! Me if i am somewhat intolerant of their old ways on Sunday mornings he taught a class at Oreland church! I feel everyone involved ( church, it does not man needs.... Conversing with you quoted this post because it has both your posts in it abusive treatment of church and. With alcohol use by people who arent alcoholics and are drunkards need drop. Mixing of apples and oranges topic by this point ex-NeoCalvinist church/cult too n't quote this correctly it me... 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